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#1 2012-12-16 23:39:41

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

The first cheater in TM2 Canyon official mode was reported, and sure enough this login also cheated online. As Dedimania requires TM2 controllers to upload validation (and ghost) replays, these can be used to confirm the online cheating.

Login 'mp3.0' has the dubious "honor" of being the first TM2 login banned from Dedimania for cheating. I checked over a dozen of his recent validation replays, and they all failed with the error 'Expected finished race'.
Replays by other players on the same tracks, as well as some of mp3.0's replays from October validated fine, just to rule out the possibility of some other glitch.

mp3.0 also lost all of his 649 Dedimania records.

This topic can be used to report (in English) other TM2 logins with suspect records or non-validating replays, according to the same reporting rules as TMF/TMN.

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#2 2013-01-29 17:22:33

Jerome
jeromecortez
New member
From: Australia
Registered: 2013-01-20
Posts: 6

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

While downloading replays off this site I noticed several suspect records by this particular user.

Login: mstottrop

Map: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS
Mode: TA
Rank: 1

At just after the 11 second mark the racer jumps off the ramp, but he falls at an impossibly quick speed (like increased gravity), resulting in a sooner landing. It's much easier to notice and quite obvious when you compare the replay to the 2nd rank dedimania time (by playing them at the same time).

Map: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS
Mode: TA
Rank: 1

Increased gravity at the end of the first jump, more easily noticeable when you run the 2nd dedimania record at the same time.

Map: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS
Mode: TA
Rank: 1

Increased gravity over the jump at the 19 second mark. Obvious when you compare it to the 2nd rank.

Map: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS
Mode: TA
Rank: 1

Increased gravity on the last jump. Again, obvious when compared to the 2nd rank.

Thanks.

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#3 2013-01-30 22:21:07

Xymph
xymph
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Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

[got feedback from Nadeo, but haven't had time for follow-up yet]

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#4 2013-03-20 22:07:01

ZZ°Top ?????.??
enryx13
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2011-06-25
Posts: 83

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Dunno if I should use this thread or the other one

http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

First cheater in TM2Stad?^^

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#5 2013-03-20 23:51:58

Xymph
xymph
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Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

enryx13 wrote:

Dunno if I should use this thread or the other one

There is no other thread for TM2 reports.

enryx13 wrote:

http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat&Mode=DESC&Envir=Stadium&RecOrder3=RANK-ASC&UId=QHYklmYY1RI1qmixBLlp1_PCQA6&Show=RECORDS

First cheater in TM2Stad?^^

Maybe, maybe not, but at least the first one caught. Four validation replays that give errors, and the first sector on that A02 track is impossible.  Banned and all deleted, thanks.

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#6 2013-03-22 23:25:05

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Via a database scan I came across a new TM2Stadium cheater today, login 'maninblack'.  Banned from Dedimania and all recs deleted.

As a result, I'm slowly ramping up my scans. And I've set up a new global blacklist, containing the three TM2 logins confirmed so far in this thread:
http://www.gamers.org/tm2/dedimania_blacklist.txt

In XAseco2 it can be deployed by editing includes/rasp.settings.php and putting that URL in $globalbl_url, and optionally also enabling $globalbl_merge.

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#7 2013-03-26 09:54:58

dedifan
dedifan
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Registered: 2013-03-26
Posts: 9

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Hi,

2 new cheaters
login: nfsps19
login: wario76

booth of them use a lightly higher acceleration at the beginning of the race resulting more speed.

nfsps19:
Cheated Maps with available ghost replays:

1)Map: Spider hunt #8
Link: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

Available ghost replays to compare:
Dedi1(cheated, validation fails) login nfsps19
Dedi2(no cheat, validation ok) login hjorten
Dedi3(no cheat, validation ok) login enrul

-->very high acceleration at the beginning of the race after the turn down both dedi2 and dedi3 have normal speed.

2)Map: Mini Mlok19 (this case is obvious cause straight line beginning)
Link: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS
Available ghost replays to compare:
Dedi1(cheated, validation fails) login nfsps19
Dedi2(no cheat, validation ok) login flash-gordon
Dedi3(no cheat, validation ok) login harjo
Dedi4(no cheat, validation ok) login mstottrop

-->The 3 not cheated replays have normal speed at the beginning of the race, dedi1 have higher acceleration and gets much earlier to the boost.

3)Map: Mr.DvD Mini 210
Link: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS
Available ghost replays to compare:
Dedi1(cheated, validation fails) login nfsps19
Dedi2(no cheat, validation ok) login strobewafel
Dedi3(cheated, validation fails) login wario76
Dedi4(no cheat, validation ok) login freak04
Dedi5(no cheat, validation ok) login mornor

This case is interesting, nfsps19 and wario76 used similar cheat to start the race with a higher acceleration to get to the boost earlier than the others.


waRio76:

1)Mr.DvD LoL 11
Link: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

Available ghost replays to compare:
Dedi1(cheated, validation fails) login wario76
Dedi2(no cheat, validation ok) login maysen.
Dedi3(no cheat, validation ok) login strobewafel

Race beginning with higher acceleration. Case is obvious compared to dedi2 and 3.

2)Mr.DVD Mini 138
Link: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

Available ghost replays to compare:
Dedi1(cheated, validation fails) login wario76
Dedi2(no cheat, validation ok) login mstottrop
Dedi3(no cheat, validation ok) login 8641marco
Dedi4(no cheat, validation ok but no ghost replay available) login gosaft
Dedi5(no cheat, validation ok) login hollist

Same here, lightly increasing acceleration at the beginning of the race.

3)Natz (this case is obvious cause straight line beginning)
Link: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

Available ghost replays to compare:
Dedi1(cheated, validation fails) login wario76
Dedi2(no cheat, validation ok) login zypher67

Starting with higher acceleration resulting more speed over the time of race. Just before the very first ramp, the car of wario76 is already ahead of zypher's car inspite of a bigger angle to the right side= impossible.
The higher acceleration on the relatively straight line causes a rising distance between the two cars.


Both of the players got many other failing validations on other maps but ghost replays are only available for the maps listed above.

Thanks.
PS. Thanks Slig&Xymph for your effort for my registration.

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#8 2013-03-26 23:28:59

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

dedifan wrote:

2 new cheaters
login: nfsps19
login: wario76

Thanks for the detailed report (a little too detailed almost wink ). wario76 banned and all recs deleted; still investigating nfsps19.

Edit: found 9 invalid replays among his 30-odd most recent entries, so banned and all his top-10 entries (1000+ records) deleted.

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#9 2013-03-27 22:45:10

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

jeromecortez wrote:

While downloading replays off this site I noticed several suspect records by this particular user.

Login: mstottrop

Sorry for the delay on this one. I verified the meaning of the invalidation errors with Nadeo, which took a few weeks, and another few weeks before I got around to doing something with their response.

I found at least 20 replays that don't validate for mstottrop, so banned and all (600+) recs deleted.
As 'collateral damage' I encountered login akkari, for which exactly the same (with 700+ recs) applied.
Thanks for the report.

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#10 2013-03-28 03:15:38

Jerome
jeromecortez
New member
From: Australia
Registered: 2013-01-20
Posts: 6

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Thanks a lot for your work on this one Xymph, it did take a while but I'm happy with the result, even caught another cheater in the process!

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#11 2013-04-07 10:36:14

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Like for TMF, I am keeping a list of cheaters in TM2 that were banned from Dedimania and globally blacklisted, or get a warning after cheating on just a few tracks. The cheating pace out there is (still) very slow, as far as I can tell, so the round-up reporting frequency will be low too.

Logins mentioned early in this topic, before setting up the blacklist, were:

mp3.0, elking, maninblack

Bans added in recent weeks were:

wario76, nfsps19, akkari, mstottrop, poojuice, clashisclay

The one/two-timers were:

masterhack, masterhack2

I am not yet automatically batch-checking validation replays submitted to Dedimania, as I'm waiting for info from Nadeo on how to set that up. Hopefully xbx will have time for it after the SM Storm release this Wednesday.

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#12 2013-04-07 12:35:20

ZZ°Top ?????.??
enryx13
Member
From: Italy
Registered: 2011-06-25
Posts: 83

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Hey

please check this guy. Login: ustrunz
for example this: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS
He left the server as he made that time.. the map is almost just straight with one turn it cant have so much deviation.

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#13 2013-04-07 13:54:42

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

enryx13 wrote:

please check this guy. Login: ustrunz
for example this: http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS
He left the server as he made that time.. the map is almost just straight with one turn it cant have so much deviation.

Of his 20 most validation replays, none passed. Banned and all recs deleted, thanks.

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#14 2013-05-19 10:29:58

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
Website

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

It's been six weeks since the previous round-up, primarily because there have (fortunately) been very few new logins to report. But here goes...

New bans and global blacklist entries:

ustrunz, tonyfr1984, baba59190

Final warnings apply to:

cicreloaded, gato59190

The latest ManiaPlanet update has fixed the problem that /validatepath couldn't be run /windowless, but validation is still broken for multi-lap track replays. Therefore an automatic process to validate all new Dedimania replays each day still isn't feasible, but I continue to pester Nadeo about this. wink

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#15 2013-06-02 10:32:53

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

In the past two weeks, one new login made it onto the ban/blacklists: jwnjwn
That's all folks.

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#16 2013-06-05 23:08:31

dedifan
dedifan
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Registered: 2013-03-26
Posts: 9

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Hi there,

sorry to disturb..please check login: balkouk1

http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

Rank1

http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

Rank5

and on other maps.

Thanks.

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#17 2013-06-08 00:13:32

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Dunno, the ghost replays look fine. Old validation replays can, in many cases, not be reliably validated by the current client anymore, and those are inconclusive.

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#18 2013-06-08 16:44:39

dedifan
dedifan
New member
Registered: 2013-03-26
Posts: 9

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Hi Xymph,

xymph wrote:

Old validation replays can, in many cases, not be reliably validated by the current client anymore, and those are inconclusive.

This is interesting and leads us to a whole other problem. If one can't get a replay validated with a VR with the actual client, that means that nadeo changed the physics of the game. This means the whole Dedimania story makes no sens anymore as the players today are driving with other physics than in the past few months! That would ruins a game that is based on getting records! I am not talking about changes in the header of the VR or in container information. I am talking about registered Keypresses and how the engine of the game interpretes these in action.

Anyway I don't think that VR structure is the problem of this guy because the VR's of other drivers in that period of time(so same client version) are validating absolutely fine. This guy however has more than 20 faulty VR's, that should raise red flags in you.

I found two replays which should be easier to see (of course both of them do not validate):

http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

Just compare the resulting speed of the turn beginning at 00:6.50 and the turn beginning at 00:32.80 with the other GR's. The results are spectacular CP Times. Funny is that he is doing during the race some unlogical driving to lower the speed bringing back cp times to realistic values, like: "Shit I boosted too much, lets get back to normal times" tongue

If this example is still unclear, then check the next one, espacially with the GR of Dedi 2 because same straight line at the beginning, no turns no drifts, just pressing forward:

http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

How can one explain that his car is already a meter in advance after 2 secondes of driving a straight line?

If you can get in front or at least at same position like him in the area of the first boost with a straight line, I owe you a free beer wink

Keep the good work up!

Dedifan

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#19 2013-06-09 20:49:57

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
Website

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

dedifan wrote:

xymph wrote:

Old validation replays can, in many cases, not be reliably validated by the current client anymore, and those are inconclusive.

This is interesting and leads us to a whole other problem. If one can't get a replay validated with a VR with the actual client, that means that nadeo changed the physics of the game.

Not necessarily, the other possibility (which Nadeo confirmed to me) is blocks that were changed, however subtly. As I understand it, the replay validation process is very sensitive, or chaotic even, and the slightest block change can already cause the validation to fail.

dedifan wrote:

This means the whole Dedimania story makes no sens anymore as the players today are driving with other physics than in the past few months! That would ruins a game that is based on getting records! I am not talking about changes in the header of the VR or in container information. I am talking about registered Keypresses and how the engine of the game interprets these in action.

Well, it seems tiny block changes don't necessarily have a big effect on how a map is driven, so dismissing the entire system is premature.

Canyon was in beta for a long time, but after that period tiny block changes were still being made as recently as two months ago, and even in the 2013-05-16 client update there was one block change.

Stadium is still in beta, so block changes are still possible there too, and the recent change in start physics is a prominent example of a change that also affects replays and their validation, I suppose.

dedifan wrote:

Anyway I don't think that VR structure is the problem of this guy because the VR's of other drivers in that period of time(so same client version) are validating absolutely fine. This guy however has more than 20 faulty VR's, that should raise red flags in you.

It does, and there are in fact 50 invalid replays (along with 510+ valid ones) for balkouk1 in the Dedi archive, but because of the above problem I was not sure how many of them actually qualify him as a cheater.

The other replay problem is that validation for multi-lap maps is broken altogether, but it's not detectable from just a replay file whether it's for a multi-lapper -- that requires inspecting the map file.
So today I wrote a script that, for every replay reported as invalid in the client's batch mode, will find the map on MX and check the multi-lap flag, so that at least those can be filtered out from the validation process.

This still leaves 39-46 invalid replays (7 maps aren't on MX so I can't check those) for balkouk1, which were submitted between Dec 8, 2011 and Mar 17, 2013.

That they are spread out so thin across his replay history is also strange, as most cheaters (on TMF) cheat a bunch of times on a day, and again the next day if they aren't banned -- not once every few days or weeks. Only on Dec 19, 2012 there are 6 invalid replays, and three on Nov 20 including your previously mentioned pcmeGPFyjy_DS1X64JZSmK9pmQ4.


dedifan wrote:

I found two replays which should be easier to see (of course both of them do not validate):

http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

Just compare the resulting speed of the turn beginning at 00:6.50 and the turn beginning at 00:32.80 with the other GR's. The results are spectacular CP Times. Funny is that he is doing during the race some unlogical driving to lower the speed bringing back cp times to realistic values, like: "Shit I boosted too much, lets get back to normal times" tongue

If this example is still unclear, then check the next one, especially with the GR of Dedi 2 because same straight line at the beginning, no turns no drifts, just pressing forward:

http://dedimania.net/tm2stats/?do=stat& … ow=RECORDS

How can one explain that his car is already a meter in advance after 2 seconds of driving a straight line?

That is suspicions indeed, and those two examples are indeed from his 'busiest' day, Dec 19.

For starters I've decided to ban balkouk1 from making new Dedi entries, but not yet blacklisted him.

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#20 2013-06-10 20:38:51

KtrL***BalKouK=TEP
tm2:balkouk1
New member
Registered: 2013-06-10
Posts: 5

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Hey, after read the topic, i m just surprising. That's crazy.

If there is bug in Canyon, or trackmania in general, that's not my fault. And if Dedifan has time to loose, it's his problem. Many people are betters than me, and we don't say they are cheaters.

I don't have to justify myself. I m not a cheater, that's all.

I m wasting my time with this instead of have fun ! I have fun since 8 years ago on TM.

Thank you to fix the situation as soon as possible. And sorry for my english wink

BalKouK.

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#21 2013-06-10 23:21:12

Xymph
xymph
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Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
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Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Thank you for stepping forward quickly. This is precisely why I didn't blacklist your login or delete your records yet.

The unreliability of the validation functionality in the client appear to become a real hindrance in the anti-cheater process, and false positives seem more likely than my already pessimistic expectations. I realize now it's even possible that one or more of the previously banned cheaters was incorrectly flagged by unreliable validation... but they haven't come forward here.

Anyway, I've unbanned balkouk1.

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#22 2013-06-11 17:19:04

dedifan
dedifan
New member
Registered: 2013-03-26
Posts: 9

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Hello there,

I saw the obviously and inexplicable incoherence in more than one map driven by you. When I saw that undefinable acceleration in simple turns or even straight forward movement, I checked your VR's and voilà they were not valid.
That is why I put it here in the right place helping Xymph and Slig to maintain a clean Database.

Telling me or anyone else that you're already driving since 8years TM or that other drivers are better than you, is in my opinion not really an argument that could explain that type of fast acceleration.

The fact is: acceleration not reproducible in straight lines from the start on(!), without even speaking about turns or any problems concerning wrong VR's!

In fact I think that the VR's espacially in this case are doing their job correctly, there is no new block in the start region. Holy shit there is no Voodoo at the start on pressing forward and letting the car drive a straight line.

Personally I think unbanning you in this easy way without real facts as valid replays or reproducible driving explications, is a false message to the whole TM-Community and brings a taste of preferred TM drivers that could not be touched because of their history or whatever.

I don't think that this is the true meaning of a clean Record-Database.

Anyway,
Dedifan

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#23 2013-06-11 17:43:53

KtrL***BalKouK=TEP
tm2:balkouk1
New member
Registered: 2013-06-10
Posts: 5

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Xymph ---->Thanks you for your wise decision, but especially for your realistic decision.

Dedifan ----> Before suspecting me with replay or anything, talk to me and my friends to understand who i am and my vision of playing.

I only play TM for fun and competition. I hate cheaters, cutters or something like that.

See u on servers wink

Bye and have fun big_smile.

BalKouK

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#24 2013-06-11 21:41:06

dedifan
dedifan
New member
Registered: 2013-03-26
Posts: 9

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

tm2:balkouk1 wrote:

Dedifan ----> Before suspecting me with replay or anything, talk to me and my friends to understand who i am and my vision of playing.

LOL, sorry but this is pure weakness. For me there is no doubt that you cheated. 
I gave you facts that anyone can recheck and you give me "Who you are or what's your vision is", this can't be more than a cheap joke, right?

I was truely expecting facts and then this.

With your records in the database, Dedimania has no sense because of lack of fairness for the effort of other thousands of players who drives without cheating.

Well done man!

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#25 2013-06-11 22:19:55

KtrL***BalKouK=TEP
tm2:balkouk1
New member
Registered: 2013-06-10
Posts: 5

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

You are just crazy man. I don't know who you are and what you are doing all your days.

You have just found the wrong guy ^^. Maybe you're jealous  wink ? Or explain to me why are you picking on me ?

My friends laugh when they see what you write !! That's ridiculous.

Wake up, you have made a mistake, move on. Stop accusing me with two cans poor replay.

Thank you and bye wink.

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#26 2013-06-11 23:53:28

Xymph
xymph
Moderator
Registered: 2009-05-26
Posts: 1630
Website

Re: TM2 cheaters in Dedimania

Both of you, knock it off.  Read the reporting rules, further such posts will be deleted.

dedifan wrote:

With your records in the database, Dedimania has no sense because of lack of fairness for the effort of other thousands of players who drives without cheating.

Dedimania isn't perfect. ManiaPlanet isn't perfect. Life isn't perfect. Deal with it and don't be a drama queen.

As for balkouk1, I didn't unban you because I'm convinced you're not a cheater, but because the tools I have available are insufficient to be sure that you are. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that jazz. smile

And dedifan does have a point regarding facts -- I still would like to read your explanation for getting ahead on the PF section of this track. Please enlighten us.

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